Eurobest: Four (m)ad men in Amsterdam

Put four Anglo Saxon creative directors together and straight away they become involved in an animated conversation. About sabbaticals, art, making documentaries and their mutual friends in the international advertising business.
It is as if these Amsterdam-based foreigners have some catching up to do. Perhaps it's because they don't often meet like-minded people who work for other companies or, more likely, because they have so much in common.
The Australian New Zealander Andy Fackrell (180 Amsterdam) and Brits Chris Baylis (Tribal DDB), Seyoan Vela (Grey Amsterdam) and Richard Gorodecky (Amsterdam Worldwide) represent many years of experience between them. They've been involved with Wieden+Kennedy, St Lukes and Profero and have a lot of prize-winning works to their names, including two Cannes Grand Prix (Baylis this year for Philips' Carousel and Fackrell in 2002 for Nike's Tag). They meet at a kitchen table in Amsterdam, where the conversation is open and ranges from the
future of the profession, the role of clients and the impact of the internet on their operations. And, of course their love of Amsterdam and their relationship with the Dutch.

Two weeks ago, during a Creative Lounge discussion organised by VCP and Vea, it became obvious that there is still a divide between the Dutch and international advertising communities. Dutch creatives and production companies think agencies like W+K and 180 are standoffish and feel ignored by the ‘newcomers' even though they have been here for years. After all W+K opened in 1992.
For their part, the expats remain surprised by the nine-to-six mentality and the shaky levels of service. And the question of why so few Dutch creatives work at the in the international agencies is a sensitive one. The kitchen discussion team have a great deal of praise for Dutch talent across the board, but there are problems, in particular Dutch employment law. Foreign agencies are cautious about taking on local hires because it is more difficult to get rid of Dutch staff when the going gets tough. Absenteeism seems also higher among Dutch workers. And even if foreign hires fall under Dutch law, the Dutch working mentality has been ‘infected' by the social security system.

Nevertheless, the social security system comes in for direct praise as well, because the recession has not hit as hard here as it has in the UK and US. Baylis: ‘The advertising industry in the US and Britain is more competitive, everyone wants to be better than everyone else. Here it is more human. Sometimes I ask myself if it would not be better if London and New York were a bit more like that. Everyone would take it a bit easier and you would not be sacked if you got it wrong one time. But the problem for the Netherlands is that this is not reality. Holland has to be competitive or it won't make it.'

Is there a difference between Dutch and international creatives?
Vela: ‘There are more Dutch than foreign creatives at Grey. I was surprised by the high standards. But we still try to create a mix because working for international clients demands another way of thinking. Particularly in the way you apply your creativity. I heard someone say that the penny doesn't drop until you have worked internationally. And that goes for people from London as much as the Dutch.'
Baylis: ‘Dutch advertising contains a lot of self-referrals. "Do you know him and him, he's really funny." But that does not work in international briefings. At Tribal we have a nice mix of nationalities. That is perhaps more luck than foresight but it works well. What I do notice is that creatives work differently here than I was used to in London. There, after a few days we would have a wall full of ideas. But when it comes to presentation, the Dutch look for the perfect paragraph to sum up their idea, with the perfect tone and knowing exactly where the joke is. I go in with a broad presentation which gives an impression of all the possible ways an idea can be adapted. If the client bites, then I work out the exact details.'

If an idea goes into production, you nearly always go off to London or LA. Why? Haven't we got enough good facilities here?
Gorodecky: ‘If you've got a budget to spend, you look around you. We talk to a couple of Dutch production houses and two or three foreign ones. Everyone can come up with a treatment. Everyone gets a chance, but you always chose the best solution for the client.'

An off the record moment: this time about the fact that Dutch production companies think the film belongs to them much more than the discussion partners are used to. Not only during filming and editing but also in the use of images. In the British and American advertising industry the rule is: he who pays calls the tune. And that means the agencies. But there is little irritation. The creative directors put the difference in attitude down to a historical tradition rather than unwillingness. Only when the levels of service come on board do the voices raise slightly. But even then, there is a positive point to be made.

Gorodecky: ‘I have two Dutch producers at Amsterdam Worldwide and I have to say that their brutal honesty helps enormously. "Shall we do it like this?" "That is a very bad idea and will not work at all." It's so refreshing. They don't try to suck up to you and I like that.'
Fackrell: ‘That is the nice thing about different nationalities. It is not just about how you are approached but how you approach people.
I remember when two Finns came into the office looking for work. I began making a bit of polite conversation rather than asking for their portfolios. Then one of the boys said: "You must understand that this kind of chit-chat that you do, we do not like it. We want to show you advertising." I really like that. I'd never want to work in a monoculture like London or New York again.'

Does Amsterdam really have anything to offer? Since the arrival of internet, location is far less relevant.
Gorodecky: ‘This city has a real international community which you will not find anywhere else.'
Vela: ‘Before we came, Grey made a European analysis of where good international advertising is made. That survey showed that French adverts are made in France, British ones in London, bad international ones in Germany and Stockholm was not attractive enough. Amsterdam really has everything for creatives. Sometimes the city does not seem to really realise what the brand Amsterdam represents. It is not a good move to shut down bits of the red light district. It is a part of Amsterdam's liberal image.'
Baylis: ‘I think the challenge for Amsterdam is to remain down-to-earth and not too organized. It is becoming a bit of a paradise for yuppies with lots of smart apartments and a council which says you cannot stand outside a café any more. And then you have the museums. I can't get over the fact there is no modern art museum which is actually open.
Fackrell: The Rijks and the Stedlijk have been barely open since I came here eight years ago. They've let it slip through their fingers.'

On the other hand, the city is investing a lot in city marketing and promoting Amsterdam as a creative capital. What are your views on that?
Fackrell: ‘Sometimes they are skating a bit on thin ice. They want us to do it for them and that does not come naturally if the product is not quite right.'
Vela: ‘I know what you mean. You have to be creative to think creatively. But Amsterdam's strength should not be underestimated. I've not lived here very long and with our sort of work it is a great release to live here. After 10 minutes on the bike I am at home or in the pub. In London you had another battle to face, namely the traffic.'
Fackrell: ‘You are quite right about that. It's the best work experience I've had. We work a lot, and very hard, but there is no extra stress and you can live your own life.'

Are the Dutch and international agencies moving close together?
Gorodecky: ‘I don't think we will ever get closer to the older creatives, who are used to nothing other than the Dutch. It's not much different in London, only more incestuous. But the youngsters out of school are much more open.'
Fackrell: ‘That's right. We have a young Dutch team from the Willem de Kooning and I always think they are Swedish. The new generation is more hungry and thinks very internationally.'

What are the big issues within your agencies?
Gorodecky: ‘It's been going on for years but it remains a problem that budgets are getting smaller and the people taking the decisions have little expertise.'
Fackrell: ‘Clients want more for less and the agencies have gone along with that. That undervalues the work. And I really think quality has gone down. I see it at our own agency as well. We sell a lot of work, get things done, agree compromises, but I have to ask myself if the more for less trend can continue much longer. I have the feeling that the industry is at the crossroads and the choice is go for quality or let it slip away.
Baylis: One interesting trend at the moment is that we go all out for jobs that we can make money on and for jobs we do because we think we ought to.'
Gorodecky: ‘There are just fewer jobs you can make money on.'
Vela: ‘It's a sort of vicious circle. There is less money so less good talent, so the client gets less, which means the client pays less. Sometimes it is as if we are our own worst enemy.'
Baylis: ‘I must say that in terms of interactive, things are not so bad. We've always had to work for little return and we are now seeing more money coming our way. We are getting just half of what we did from television, but it's okay. Certainly now I work in a euro country. But I won't exaggerate. Even at Carousel we did not earn much.'

How do you sell that sort of work?
Baylis: ‘We really wanted to get Philips on board, because we knew it would illustrate the power of online compared with television. So we did all we could, even made an investment ourselves. But sometimes it is hard to sell an interactive idea because the client does not know where to place it.
Certainly on the international stage. At companies like Unilever, you sell an idea to a marketeer, who has to sell it to his or her boss and they in turn sell it to the company director. That takes time and if you have products on the shelves and want to do
something online, it does not work.'
Fackrell: ‘It is a cliché but you really only sell good ideas if there is trust. You have to build up your relationships. And if that relationship walks out the door, you start all over again. You don't leave trust behind.'
Gorodecky: ‘I believe there are companies you will never sell good work to. The culture and the process is so closed off that it is practically impossible to make changes.'
Baylis: ‘I once had a beer-client. He wanted to get some attention for a new sort of beer pump and kept asking: "Why do we need an idea to sell this. The pump is very interesting". At a moment like that I can be rude and say: No-one gives a damn about your beer pump, they really don't. You have to give them something to talk about, then they will forgive you for advertising.'

Should clients do more with their time?
Baylis: ‘Some clients have to fundamentally change the way they deal with digital. Philips has a number of specialists and that works well. They can step in and out of the process when they think it necessary.'
Vela: ‘Many agencies need to change. It is no longer a question of big beating small but fast beating slow. Traditional agencies have trouble with that. We are not just confronted by the recession but by technology. Clients work with new agencies which work faster. And they give away a lot for free to prove it.'
Baylis: ‘You mean that they only charge for production, not for ideas.'
Vela: ‘Exactly. And we have to take on that new digital mentality. In fact it is the perfect storm for agencies. There is a recession and we have to change the culture to get the speed up. You have money and time pressures. The initial natural reaction is to race against it, but in the end you always pull out all the stops to get more time.'

How has digitalisation changed your daily work?
Vela: ‘What I have to get used to as a creative is that we do lots of things which don't lead to an end product. It used to be that you ended up with an advert, a commercial or a stunt. Now we push through as much work, but you don't always see a direct result.'
Gorodecky: ‘That's right. For example, we do lots of PR and activation. How do you get bloggers enthusiastic about the brand? It's a difficult period but on the other hand an unbelievably stimulating one. We can do so much more now than how we used to work: very rigid and caught up in ourselves.'
Baylis: ‘You always have to produce work which is worth talking about. And you still need budget for that. Certainly now film and internet are moving so close together. The media bureaus, they are going to suffer more. I'd rather bring in a seeder for two weeks than let a media bureau write a plan.'
Gorodecky: ‘You want to see a good ad once, but definitely don't want to see a bad ad twice.
Fackrell: Funny, I say that too. We were in a digital pitch recently and it was fascinating to see who was brought in. No one from advertising school, but techies and other sorts of thinkers who talk about things we haven't the foggiest idea about. At a certain moment there was a strategist who began talking about metadata, and Chris Mendola and I just looked at each other in disbelief.'

Hasn't the advertising industry waited too long bringing in these sort of people?
Fackrell: ‘Absolutely.'
Vela: ‘Of course traditional agencies did bring them in during the dotcom period. They have not stayed with their investment and let their digital operations bleed to death because they did not earn enough. The divide between television and banners was too wide and because there was no broadband the impact appeared to be okay. Now, five years later they finally realise that they needed the expertise.'
Fackrell: ‘You need all sorts of creativity because our profession is getting broader. As well as a good story you need to walk off other perspectives, from digital to PR, to see if they grab each other. The profession has become much freer. Everyone knows what advertising is and how its made with blue screens and special effects and the like. And Mad Men explains to them how it got to be the way it is.'
Vela: ‘In some ways, we are going back to the 1950s and 1960s. JWT invented Baileys and After Eight, Leo Burnett thought up the Banana Splits and invented morning television. In Mad Men they write the airline company menu. We'd think it a nice job to get now, but back then it was dead normal.'
Baylis: ‘Our client says we have done the first mass campaign using Twitter. It's the same as painting the first advert on the outside of an aeroplane or making the first telephone sale.
Fackrell: I like the analysis that says we as an industry have moved from being all-rounders in the 1950s to film makers and are now moving back to being all-rounders.'